Herbal abortions.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.herbs
Subject: INQUIRY: Safe Herbal Abortion?
From: gunfard.primenet.com (Andra Barrow)
Date: 3 Jun 1995 10:08:26 GMT
I just moved and all of my herbal books are packed into oblivion right now and I don't have time to go look for them. Could some of you with the resources on hand post or email me the safest, most effective herbal or natural means of inducing an abortion? A dear friend of mine direly wishes to avoid an invasive surgical abortion so I'm tapping all the research and information sources I can. This seemed like a pretty appropriate place to ask.:) Thank you. Any assistence on this is greatly appreciated.
From: smiller.pacifier.com (smiller)
> Could some of you with the resources on hand post or email me the safest, most effective herbal or natural means of inducing an abortion?
I would take heed though - I recall reading in my many herbals that the strength of potion required to induce abortion is also close to the lethal dose...
From: brumstik.interaccess.com (broomstick)
> Could some of you with the resources on hand post or email me the safest, most effective herbal or natural means of inducing an abortion?
What I know for sure about herbal abortions is that they can be dangerous or even deadly. This is NOT an area for amateurs. One of the reasons "invasive surgical abortions" because the method of choice is that they are generally safer and more reliable than the herbal variety. Which is not to say that you CAN'T herbally abort. What I am trying to tell you is that the dosage of many of these things needed to induce an abortion is very close to fatal.
If you MUST do this consult someone who knows what they are doing - don't just take any random advice you get over the Internet or from relatives and friends. BE VERY CAREFUL!!!!
From: Marla Brunker <brunker.delphi.com>
> Could some of you with the resources on hand post or email me the safest, most effective herbal or natural means of inducing an abortion?
Oh lord...This woman is really a friend of yours? Then tell her to get her cowardly ass to a real doc and get a real abortion. The procedure takes about 10 minutes, and recovery is half-a-day if you go for a local anesthetic (longer if you take a general, which is also more expensive and chemically invasive).
Or you can get ready for her to have a baby. Don't kid yourselves - them's your choices.
You CANNOT afford to screw this up.
From: aj982.FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Kerry Eady)
> If I may interject? I suggest directing attention to the March/April 1994 issue of Archaeology magazine. There is an article on ancient methods of birthcontrol, including abortion, using herbs and so forth.
> Pennyroyal is mentioned, as is the fact that precise amounts must be taken because it can kill if too much is taken...however, more forgiving herbs do exist: Queen Anne's Lace seeds, rue, acacia leaves. These are also mentioned in the article. The article will at least direct you to the authors who have written other related works. Also, NOW, the Nat'l Organization for Women had a book published in the last couple years on how to give yourself an abortion. I do not yet have it but I would imagine that many, if not most of the means were herbal, though normal birthcontrol pills can also be used to induce abortion.
It doesn't detail how to give a herbal abortion.
In the days before abortion was legalized there was an underground railway that helped women get surgical abortions. Women have and are keeping that knowledge alive in case it is needed again. Women's health groups have learned how to do vacuum extractions and that is what can be taught easily.
Herbs make great back ups to any surgery and the only herbs I've seen suggested in abortion activists writing are to be used to prevent infection, to soothe the "after-pains" - both physical and emotional, etc.
> Queen Anne's Lace is EVERYWHERE (I test-tasted a few seeds last year out of curiosity after reading the article above - a little bitter, but that's it). What is mentioned in the article is that women in Appalachia would add a teaspoon of seeds to water and drink it immediatly after coitus. In India, women will simply chew the seeds.
The only way to safely give yourself a herbal based abortion is to start immeadiately after coitus. Wild Carrot is an implantation preventor, so it has to be used then. Any herbal method that is used *after* a missed period is more invasive and dangerous than a D&C or vacuum extraction ever could be.
Taste test a teaspoon every day for seven days if you want to know how bad carrot seed tastes. I use it as a backup during fertile times and haven't gotten pregnant accidentally yet. It is quite horrible tasting though.
However, most people who come asking for a herbal abortion on this list (in my experience of trading private e-mail) have missed one - three periods already, are young, are scared, and are chickening out on telling parents. They want a quick fix, and one they can do in their bedroom.
Herbal abortions require that you start immeadiately *not* once you've confirmed pregnancy with a missed period. If you wait you will get horribly ill in the process, will either end up getting a properly done clinic abortion, or worry about the damage you did to your baby during the rest of your pregnancy. I know too many women who have been traumatized by this process and that trauma is a combination of things - the base reasons around why they want a herbal abortion instead of a surgical one (usually fear that anyone will find out), the fact that most of them have waited much too long to be successful (usually because they were in denial about the pregnancy in the first place), the frightening attempt that makes them violently ill, the aloneness (because they attempted it without a support of any kind), and then the fact that they are still pregnant and have to make the choice again.
From: aj982.FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Kerry Eady)
> Many of the same problems exist for those who go to a clinic too...
I don't know of anyone who's gone through a clinic abortion and still found themselves pregnant after the procedure. Hemorrhages happen yes, but in a clinic with qualified staff present it isn't nearly as life threatening as when it happens to some 16 year old girl in her bedroom who tried a herbal method.
> with the added problem that the ability to get one could be outlawed at any moment AND there human threats waiting to kill and threaten those performing the "safer" medical method and receiving it.
Oh and the solution to this is to return to ineffectual back alley techniques instead of making it clear that therapeutic abortions *save* women's lives. As I said before, women's health groups that are worried about abortion being made illegal again are learning how to do therapeutic abortions, and they're still marching and protesting, and acting as support staff at clinics too. I don't know of anyone, including the women's health herbalists, midwives, and other pro-choice activists that I deal with regularly who would advocate using a herbal abortion method after a missed period while abortion is still legal and available.
> In any case, you do not need to start right away, at least not with all available herbal methods. There are those that can work no matter what point in the pregnancy one is in.
The issue isn't wether or not you can manage to cause a miscarriage, go douse yourself in pennyroyal oil whenever you want, the issue is what is safe to do. What is safe for a *layperson* to do. Midwives aren't on here asking for herbal abortion techniques, laypeople are.
> Inducing abortion herbally and THEN going to a clinic or normal emergency room if there's a problem (or just in case, if ther IS no problem) could eliminate protestors, threats, and legal games. These all make the herbal method VERY attractive.
I don't follow you. Are you saying we should return to the 50's mentality that if you can get yourself halfway through a miscarriage you can pretend it's spontaneous and no one will *blame* you for not wanting to be pregnant. Why not just suggest coathangers and hot gin? How about women return to the days when they threw themselves down stairs hoping to cause a miscarriage like in Gone With The Wind.
If you're pro-choice support clinics, support herbal followup care, support not for profit clinics and health coverage for abortions, and support women who have to make choices. Please don't suggest that we hide in our homes trying to induce a spontaneous abortion out of fear.
From: p_iannone.pop.com (Paul Iannone)
: The issue isn't wether or not you can manage to cause a miscarriage, go douse yourself in pennyroyal oil whenever you want, the issue is what is safe to do. What is safe for a *layperson* to do. Midwives aren't on here asking for herbal abortion techniques, laypeople are.
You're misconstruing the issue, which isn't as black and white as you're making it out to be. Yes, pennyroyal oil is deadly, but pennyroyal leaf is not. And there are a panoply of herbals that can cause a miscarriage, if that intention exists. And clinical abortions are not absolutely safe, nor are they particularly pleasant or without stigma. You may not know anyone who hemorrhaged, but you probably know many women who have scar tissue from such procedures impinging on their future fertility.
Just asking for a little balance.
From: aj982.FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Kerry Eady)
> You're misconstruing the issue, which isn't as black and white as you're making it out to be.
What am I misconstruing? Laypeople are asking for herbal abortion information. Every midwide, herbalist that specializes in women's health and prochoice activist I know says - DO NOT ATTEMPT A HERBAL ABORTION YOURSELF, quickly followed by IF YOU HAVE ALREADY MISSED ONE PERIOD IT IS TOO LATE TO *SAFELY* ABORT USING A HERBAL METHOD. Besides which, what I was responding to was the comment that you could easily do a herbal abortion at *any point* during a pregnancy. That is simply an irresponsible comment. Yes, at any point during a pregnancy you can cause a miscarriage, that doesn't mean it's safe to do, or that you won't damage yourself more in the process than if you had a vacuum extraction, a D&C, or a saline induction if it was a 2nd term pregnancy.
> Yes, pennyroyal oil is deadly, but pennyroyal leaf is not. And there are a panoply of herbals that can cause a miscarriage, if that intention exists.
Yes, *if* it's used up to two weeks after the first day you expected your period. If you start early, and it's reccomended for this to work that you start *a week before your period is due*. Then it has, in infusion strength, a 60% chance of causing a spontaneous abortion. The other 40% have damaged their placentas during the attempt and will have to then decide if they want to have a clinical abortion or carry - if they're lucky to term. Those odds are not particularily good and they decrease rapidly if you wait to see if you get your period or not.
> And clinical abortions are not absolutely safe, nor are they particularly pleasant or without stigma.
I never said they were, but they are the lesser of two evils in this case. Realistically Paul, this thread was started by a layperson, a man, looking for a herbal method of abortion for a female friend. Regardless of herbal vs. clinic safety. If you were to have an abortion of either kind you would need to have the support and help of a professional who knew what they were doing. The professionals that I know do not believe that mid 1st trimester herbal abortions are an effective means of abortion.
> You may not know anyone who hemorrhaged, but you probably know many women who have scar tissue from such procedures impinging on their future fertility.
Actually what I said was "hemorrhages happen yes, but in a clinic with qualified staff present it isn't nearly as life threatening as when it happens to some 16 year old girl in her bedroom who tried a herbal method."
My primary concern is for the welfare of the women who have to make these choices. I think my attitude throughout this discussion has been very balanced. I will not post recipies or instructions in this forum because I know that the vast majority of those who seek out the information are not going to be women who have had unprotected sex during their fertile days and want to be sure they get that period in a week. The vast majority are going to be women who expected their periods two, three, five weeks ago and are freaking out.
When I talk in e-mail or in person with women in this situation I offer them what they need most - emotional and physical support - to help them make the decision that they need to make. I try to make sure if it's an electronic relationship that they find people close to them who can offer them support as well. With supports and knowledgable professionals who deal with women's health issues (midwives, herbalists, M.D.s) they have a much better chance of putting this event behind them with as few scars as possible.
Flippant lists of herbal abortifacients don't help women. They don't further the pro-choice mandate.
From: p_iannone.pop.com (Paul Iannone)
: Flippant lists of herbal abortifacients don't help women. They don't further the pro-choice mandate.
The pro-choice mandate may well be a worthy concern. Women approach me for herbal abortions on a regular basis. I patiently explain that:
1) they will spend about the same amount of money.
2) they won't know when or if it will work.
3) the herbals will stress their bodies, and potentially make their skin look bad.
4) they will worry for weeks.
5) they will be taking a variety of essentially unknown risks.
6) they are no doubt upset, and should get counselling.
7) a therapeutic abortion is fairly safe, and herbals can be used to help prevent scar tissue --and-- hemorrhage.
8) they will probably have other chances to get pregnant when the time is right.
9) they will be happier if they just get it over with once their decision is made.
Essentially, we are in agreement. I simply do not agree, however, that propagandizing with inaccurate, slanted condemnations of herbals is the way to make your point.
From: aj982.FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Kerry Eady)
> The pro-choice mandate may well be a worthy concern. Women approach me for herbal abortions on a regular basis. I patiently explain that:
Here's that mandate, in case anyone doesn't know - that *safe* *legal* abortion should be accessible to *all* women regardless of financial situation or other demographic determiners.
Here in Ontario women can get an abortion covered under the provincial health plan. If you don't want to go through the hassle of explaining to the board of doctors your reason for having an abortion you can get one at a clinic which has a sliding scale fee schedule. If you're 16 or older your parents don't have to know about it. Clinics are very accomodating these days. They allow the space to be consecrated, for you to have your own supports there with you, and they allow you to see or take home the fetal tissue. I know a number of midwives who have done abortion counselling, gone with a woman to her appointment at a clinic, and then done herbal follow up care to prevent hemmorrage and infection. They do this for FREE.
I understand that things aren't as well set up in the states, Ontario could use more clinics in Northern regions too. Anyhow...
Paul counsels:
> 1) they will spend about the same amount of money.
I don't know what you mean about it costing as much money. If someone approaches me early enough and I get their menstrual herstory and some basic medical info I can give them a good emmenagogue recipe - all plants easily found, and I do it for free. The midwives i know who help with very early abortions do not charge for their services in this area unless they are really put out by the process (long drives, overnight stays, etc) then it's a pay what you can arrangement. different traditions different fees....
> 2) they won't know when or if it will work.
Agreed in part, the plants that I use require 1 to 3 weeks of use. With specified deadlines within that timeframe. If you haven't started bleeding by a specified date it hasn't worked and it won't.
> 3) the herbals will stress their bodies, and potentially make their skin look bad.
Induce vomitting, stress their liver as well as their uterus, potentially cause hemmorrage, cause lumps in their breasts, lots of nasty side effects out there.
> 4) they will worry for weeks.
Agreed.
> 5) they will be taking a variety of essentially unknown risks.
Ummm...the plants used in my tradition are all time tested, we know the risks involved. The only real unknown is "will it work this time", which is significant.
> 6) they are no doubt upset, and should get counselling.
in my tradition we offer that support.
> 7) a therapeutic abortion is fairly safe, and herbals can be used to help prevent scar tissue --and-- hemorrhage.
Agreed.
> 8) they will probably have other chances to get pregnant when the time is right.
Agreed.
> 9) they will be happier if they just get it over with once their decision is made.
Not necessarily, quite a few women need to go through a personal kind of ritual before they can submit to a procedure like this. Making sure they are ready for the abortion is as important as making the decision to go through with one.
> Essentially, we are in agreement. I simply do not agree, however, that propagandizing with inaccurate, slanted condemnations of herbals is the way to make your point.
I'm not condemning herbals! They have their place in preventative reproductive care, at 5 weeks gestation they are no longer a *safer* route than a therapeutic abortion and they have a high failure rate, regardless. They can be dangerous in inexperienced hands. Nothing I have put forth has been inaccurate. The people I trust with this sort of information are concerned with providing free care to women who wouldn't have access to abortion otherwise, clearly your tradition does not think affordability is an issue. It is to many -most- of the people asking for the information in this forum and they are not going to show up and hand you money for obscure (in North America) herbs. Midwives and herbwomen that deal specifically with women's health are using time tested indigenous or naturalized plants, and they do feel that with therapeutic abortion as available as it is that after a certain point (5 weeks gestation) that therapeutic abortions are a safer choice to be making.
From: brumstik.interaccess.com (broomstick)
>: Any herbal method that is used *after* a missed period is more invasive and dangerous than a D&C or vacuum extraction ever could be.
>That is simply not true. There are a variety of blood-moving herbals that can bring on a period even after implantation. These herbals are neither invasive or dangerous in the sense that you mean it (they are distinct from herbals like pennyroyal). A certain number of perforated uteri occur every year from therapeutic abortion. A certain number of hemorrhage cases occur. Not every abortion clinic is aseptic.
I think part of the problem here is finding a reliable, competent medical expert, whether herbal, holistic, or allopathic. Certainly, there are quacks everywhere.
Another part of the problem is that women who have an unwanted pregnancy have a tendency to panic - they are up against a deadline and there are folks out there who treat them as a criminal for having sex, being pregnant, and what have you. For young women (teens, particuarly) there is added stigma, fear, and costs that are prohibitive. Now before you flame me about abortion being available at low cost, let me say that what is affordable to an employed middle-class woman may be completely out of the reach of an unemployed 14 year old girl whose parents may or may not be sympathetic to her cause.
What women NEED (aside from birth control that works and the knowledge to use it) is a means of getting the gyn care they need when pregnant - whether that means abortion or prenatal care. Too many women are forced to have children they don't want, whereas others who want healthy children cannot get the prenatal care they need.
Because abortion is seen as disreputable by many, there has grown up a number of clinics that take advantage of poor, desparate women. I know of one case in Indiana where the women's money was taken, they were anesthetized, a procedure was "carried out", and the women sent home. Only to find out a month later that they were STILL pregnant, they were out their money (and these were women with very little to begin with) and now it was too late to have an abortion outside of a hospital, which, without insurance, they most certainly could not afford, had they been able to find a hospital where it would be done. And THAT sort of quackery is as much a tragedy and a crime as needless infections and perforated uterii.
